RE Footnote 1: This reflects the “bait & switch”approach. When you first show up they ask nothing of you, give you free stuff, you’re our guest, everyone loves you, and the Sr. Pastor wants to be your best friend. Only later do they ask for your money, all of your time (uncompensated - “it’s for God after all”), and tell you that “Jesus wants your all and everything” (which is true enough but they actually want you to take what you would give to Jesus and instead give it to the “church,” i.e. organization).
Great point. And this is uncomfortably similar to cult tactics - love bombing draws you in, and once you're committed, they begin "extracting" your time and money.
And yes -- they wouldn't encourage us giving to Jesus if it didn't go through their hands... kinda like Judas and the moneybag, now that I think of it.
In the mid’90s, I started to find Biblical, cynical, knowledgeable prophets who described what the Church Growth Movement (CGM) was doing and how you could know where things were heading. I stayed up-to-date and waited/watched. These were some of the dynamics:
The church needs to become attractive to “hook” “seekers.”
Seekers are 30-40 somethings who dress “business casual”, drive to work with throbbing music.
Seekers want churches that don’t have Q-tips (old, white-haired, people, usually seen in choir robes.
They do not want to hear 300 year-old hymns.
They don’t want a choir.
They don’t want an organ.
They don’t want a Pastor wearing a robe…or a tie…business casual.
Ditch these things.
The church we joined the first week after 911, gradually followed the formula described above. Q-tip choir members came to depart in tears as new seekers found what they were looking for. Paid & volunteer staff were flown to Illinois, got rental cars, enrolled at Willow Creek Church & paid for hotels.
They will accept Starbucks coffee
They will be comfortable with an ATM machine
Like Willow Creek Church (which had up to 4 MBAs on staff) these churches will begin to hire MBAs.
Anyone remember churches claiming to be “Willow Associate” designated churches?
We walked away in 2008, found a church in Virginia that received training in Virginia. The anti-CGM prophets mapped things out with sequential indicators…that each came true.
If a Christian reads Acts, that should probably be our map.
I think I understand your point & my one cruise was Carnival in 1988.
Blessings. The best example of evangelism may be when Philip the Evangelist met the Ethiopian Eunuch, explained Isaiah’s description of Jesus and the Gospel, then baptized him. The Ethiopian was a seeker. God had someone arrive to explain things.
Q-tips! Goodness, I’ve never heard that term before 🤦♀️
Glad you brought up Willow Creek. They were so influential, but in hindsight — knowing the truth about Hybels’ character — it looks completely different. They weren’t spreading a healthy model of leadership after all.
And the problem with catering to “seekers” is you’ll be constantly, and anxiously, trying to know what someone else wants and give it to them before they lose interest. It’s not a way to develop disciples.
I knew something was going on so I started searching. There was one guy who painted the picture but the church I attended was following each step along the way, the Q-tip was his term. I like the idea of Lydia’s “House Church” & the Ethiopian Eunuch experience. Except for Pentacost, Acts’ conversions may be a Centurian “& his household” but Jesus was largely one-on-one (except the two large field preachings). The “Confession” Hybel’s made was that they failed to perform phase 2 & 3. I became very comfortable with this sequence for Evangelism : Heart, Mind, Hands & Feet. Not a new idea, because it is laid out in the Shema, Deut 6. Blessings.
I chose “all three” for the majority of these (granted, I’ve never been on a cruise or gone to a country club, but I’ve seen the ads and brochures). So convicting. I was once a Director of Communications for a mega church and almost completely bought into the slick, seeker sensitive model. I’ve been on a long journey away from that sort of thing but I still think we fall prey to cruise ship thinking sometimes.
Yes, it can be difficult to see, since as Americans, we’re swimming in those waters all the time. We may have been warned against “worldliness” when it came to sex and substances, but didn’t notice the influence of these bigger systems.
Q Tip here. I belong to a small congregation (about 100) and after many months of tears, have decided to sing alone at home and arrive at church for communion and coffee hour. I have started leading worship at senior living facilities, where the longing is for the community of faith, not fancy events designed to welcome only some of God’s people.
I think that’s beautiful. And so needed! Senior living facilities are the sorts of places churches ought to invest in, but rarely do since there’s little “profit” to be had. Good thing that’s not how God’s kingdom operates. What a lovely ministry you’re offering!
It's more like a family of frogs having parties on the stove.
Who are the ones really under persecution from the enemy?
Not those who died defending our Lord in the Muslim countries who did not fear the persecution for their body. There is no fear when there is no doubt about their salvation as sheep. I think they knew and welcomed the persecution or even death—something the Laodicean churches cannot fathom.
The enemy and his minions are deceitful. Their objective is to lead the soul to the lake of fire, not just kill the body. This is personal for him because he cannot bear the thought that we can be sheep in the presence of God, and he cannot. The enemy does not attack our faith directly; he goes against everything our Lord stands for and pressures us to be part of it. The enemy knows that’s the only way to change our status from sheep to goats. Therefore, if we fall into the trap and willingly support everything against our Lord because we fear losing comfort in our churches and the pressure from the secular world, do you see now who are the real ones under persecution and still have no ideas?
So lukewarm Christians are like a family of frogs bathing on the stove. The frogs cannot sense a slow change in the water's temperature. If you throw the frog into boiling water, it will jump out immediately. But if you place the frog into cold water and slowly heat it to boiling, it won't notice and will be cooked alive. Neither cold nor hot does not sound an alarm now, and the parties can go on. But it will lead to the Lake of Fire when the time comes.
Upon the return of our Lord, there will be sheep on his right and goats on his left. Our Lord will not ask about your affiliation with political parties, which politicians you voted for, what news channels you watched, what books you read, what churches you belong to, I think we all know that. There may be one question that sheep do not need to answer:
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” Luke 6:46
Good thoughts, Joy. As I thought about why I liked the church I mentioned a few weeks ago, I realized it had none of the marketing and country club trappings.
So glad to hear that. It can be hard to find those. One of the things I thought about while writing this post was a red flag from the church you and I attended, but which I only saw in hindsight... one of the kids' ministry staffers told me that some families were in the habit of dropping their kids off on Sunday mornings and then, instead of going to the service, would take advantage of the free childcare and go out to brunch instead. The consumer mentality was so corrosive.
Thanks for writing! I sent this to a few of my friends and also discussed it over dinner! I think it’s scary when we can’t tell the difference. The church needs to wake up. 😵💫
RE Footnote 1: This reflects the “bait & switch”approach. When you first show up they ask nothing of you, give you free stuff, you’re our guest, everyone loves you, and the Sr. Pastor wants to be your best friend. Only later do they ask for your money, all of your time (uncompensated - “it’s for God after all”), and tell you that “Jesus wants your all and everything” (which is true enough but they actually want you to take what you would give to Jesus and instead give it to the “church,” i.e. organization).
Great point. And this is uncomfortably similar to cult tactics - love bombing draws you in, and once you're committed, they begin "extracting" your time and money.
And yes -- they wouldn't encourage us giving to Jesus if it didn't go through their hands... kinda like Judas and the moneybag, now that I think of it.
In the mid’90s, I started to find Biblical, cynical, knowledgeable prophets who described what the Church Growth Movement (CGM) was doing and how you could know where things were heading. I stayed up-to-date and waited/watched. These were some of the dynamics:
The church needs to become attractive to “hook” “seekers.”
Seekers are 30-40 somethings who dress “business casual”, drive to work with throbbing music.
Seekers want churches that don’t have Q-tips (old, white-haired, people, usually seen in choir robes.
They do not want to hear 300 year-old hymns.
They don’t want a choir.
They don’t want an organ.
They don’t want a Pastor wearing a robe…or a tie…business casual.
Ditch these things.
The church we joined the first week after 911, gradually followed the formula described above. Q-tip choir members came to depart in tears as new seekers found what they were looking for. Paid & volunteer staff were flown to Illinois, got rental cars, enrolled at Willow Creek Church & paid for hotels.
They will accept Starbucks coffee
They will be comfortable with an ATM machine
Like Willow Creek Church (which had up to 4 MBAs on staff) these churches will begin to hire MBAs.
Churches grew
In 2007, the failures were confessed https://www.christianitytoday.com/2007/10/willow-creek-repents/
In 2018, collapse : https://www.christianitytoday.com/2018/04/bill-hybels-resigns-willow-creek-misconduct-allegations/
Anyone remember churches claiming to be “Willow Associate” designated churches?
We walked away in 2008, found a church in Virginia that received training in Virginia. The anti-CGM prophets mapped things out with sequential indicators…that each came true.
If a Christian reads Acts, that should probably be our map.
I think I understand your point & my one cruise was Carnival in 1988.
Blessings. The best example of evangelism may be when Philip the Evangelist met the Ethiopian Eunuch, explained Isaiah’s description of Jesus and the Gospel, then baptized him. The Ethiopian was a seeker. God had someone arrive to explain things.
Q-tips! Goodness, I’ve never heard that term before 🤦♀️
Glad you brought up Willow Creek. They were so influential, but in hindsight — knowing the truth about Hybels’ character — it looks completely different. They weren’t spreading a healthy model of leadership after all.
And the problem with catering to “seekers” is you’ll be constantly, and anxiously, trying to know what someone else wants and give it to them before they lose interest. It’s not a way to develop disciples.
I knew something was going on so I started searching. There was one guy who painted the picture but the church I attended was following each step along the way, the Q-tip was his term. I like the idea of Lydia’s “House Church” & the Ethiopian Eunuch experience. Except for Pentacost, Acts’ conversions may be a Centurian “& his household” but Jesus was largely one-on-one (except the two large field preachings). The “Confession” Hybel’s made was that they failed to perform phase 2 & 3. I became very comfortable with this sequence for Evangelism : Heart, Mind, Hands & Feet. Not a new idea, because it is laid out in the Shema, Deut 6. Blessings.
I chose “all three” for the majority of these (granted, I’ve never been on a cruise or gone to a country club, but I’ve seen the ads and brochures). So convicting. I was once a Director of Communications for a mega church and almost completely bought into the slick, seeker sensitive model. I’ve been on a long journey away from that sort of thing but I still think we fall prey to cruise ship thinking sometimes.
Yes, it can be difficult to see, since as Americans, we’re swimming in those waters all the time. We may have been warned against “worldliness” when it came to sex and substances, but didn’t notice the influence of these bigger systems.
Q Tip here. I belong to a small congregation (about 100) and after many months of tears, have decided to sing alone at home and arrive at church for communion and coffee hour. I have started leading worship at senior living facilities, where the longing is for the community of faith, not fancy events designed to welcome only some of God’s people.
I think that’s beautiful. And so needed! Senior living facilities are the sorts of places churches ought to invest in, but rarely do since there’s little “profit” to be had. Good thing that’s not how God’s kingdom operates. What a lovely ministry you’re offering!
Neither.
It's more like a family of frogs having parties on the stove.
Who are the ones really under persecution from the enemy?
Not those who died defending our Lord in the Muslim countries who did not fear the persecution for their body. There is no fear when there is no doubt about their salvation as sheep. I think they knew and welcomed the persecution or even death—something the Laodicean churches cannot fathom.
The enemy and his minions are deceitful. Their objective is to lead the soul to the lake of fire, not just kill the body. This is personal for him because he cannot bear the thought that we can be sheep in the presence of God, and he cannot. The enemy does not attack our faith directly; he goes against everything our Lord stands for and pressures us to be part of it. The enemy knows that’s the only way to change our status from sheep to goats. Therefore, if we fall into the trap and willingly support everything against our Lord because we fear losing comfort in our churches and the pressure from the secular world, do you see now who are the real ones under persecution and still have no ideas?
So lukewarm Christians are like a family of frogs bathing on the stove. The frogs cannot sense a slow change in the water's temperature. If you throw the frog into boiling water, it will jump out immediately. But if you place the frog into cold water and slowly heat it to boiling, it won't notice and will be cooked alive. Neither cold nor hot does not sound an alarm now, and the parties can go on. But it will lead to the Lake of Fire when the time comes.
Upon the return of our Lord, there will be sheep on his right and goats on his left. Our Lord will not ask about your affiliation with political parties, which politicians you voted for, what news channels you watched, what books you read, what churches you belong to, I think we all know that. There may be one question that sheep do not need to answer:
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” Luke 6:46
the fear of losing comfort can be truly dangerous, you're right!
Another excellent post.
Thank you, Nadine!
Good thoughts, Joy. As I thought about why I liked the church I mentioned a few weeks ago, I realized it had none of the marketing and country club trappings.
So glad to hear that. It can be hard to find those. One of the things I thought about while writing this post was a red flag from the church you and I attended, but which I only saw in hindsight... one of the kids' ministry staffers told me that some families were in the habit of dropping their kids off on Sunday mornings and then, instead of going to the service, would take advantage of the free childcare and go out to brunch instead. The consumer mentality was so corrosive.
This was an excellent read. Wow.
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for writing! I sent this to a few of my friends and also discussed it over dinner! I think it’s scary when we can’t tell the difference. The church needs to wake up. 😵💫
Hi Natalie! Wow, that comment made my day. I'm so glad the post sparked conversation. Thank you so much for letting me know!