I agree with you. Another way to redirect the misguided church leaders in your past would to point out that the main work is done by the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts, and will look like a miracle. Chances are, if "church success" looks anything like business success, chances are it was wrong.
I’ve heard so many guys in lead pastor positions argue the “I am a pastor whose gift is teaching/evangelism” thing. It’s so easily co-opted. Or “I’m an apostolic pastor like Paul”…sigh. A lot of built in gymnastics to justify the ambition for power and success over shepherding presence. I wrestled with a lot of the same here https://open.substack.com/pub/ryanramsey/p/lead-pastor-or-lead-outsourcer?r=aaq7m&utm_medium=ios
That post was so good! Reducing the role of pastor to a collection of functions is dehumanizing and dangerous -- to the congregation but also to the pastors themselves.
This is well said. One minor nitpick: a shepherd generally does not feed the sheep directly, but brings them to where they may feed themselves. A good pastor is more concerned with getting the flock into the Word for themselves than trying to exhaustively teach every doctrine he can extract from a few verses.
This is a GREAT point. I’ve experienced pastors who seem to want to feed the flock “by hand,” so to speak — to keep them dependent on sermons rather than ensure they can feed themselves.
Yes. You can tend to your flock if you do not know them, In the last 20 years, have had one interim pastor who made an extraordinary effort to care, tend his flock. Been at current 7 years snd not one pastor or elder had ever checked on us. love our tithe, love our service yep. do they love us - heck they dont even know us!
wow. I'm so sorry. Yes, too many "pastors" just make a profit off their sheep and pay no attention to them otherwise. I'm thankful that Jesus taught so explicitly in condemning the false shepherds and promising to be our Good Shepherd -- otherwise I'd feel pretty hopeless.
To say this was "convicting" would be a complete understatement.
As I begin my 6th month of church planting, words like these are a gold mine for me. Thank you for imparting your wisdom so publicly here, Joy.
We are literally in our "Vision, mission, and values" series and although I do believe there is a need to vision cast, for the sake of unity, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment and thoughts on the church not taking on some form of militaristic approach to vision and mission.
I also really appreciate the your both/and approach to shepherds leading and following. It's really my first time reading about shepherds following their flock and it is something I am going to ruminate on and apply to the church plant I am leading (and now following).
I selfishly would like to ask for you to continue writing about your experiences from your church planting years so a young pastor like myself can learn, haha. Thank you for these insights, Joy!
Thank you for reading and for the kind words! I’m definitely not opposed to the idea of “vision” — I believe people want to be part of God’s work in the world and feel called to something bigger than themselves — but after seeing how that mindset went so terribly wrong, I’m trying to re-evaluate everything I thought I knew about church. So, yes, I will be writing more!
Thank you! We were Acts 29 as well and SO invested… I would be so interested to hear more of your story — have you written about it or are you planning to?
I love the comparison of leading the sheep vs carrying for the sheep. So on point. Church can be so stressful as we try in desperation to squeeze out fruit for Jesus. Yet I find it tedious and boring when church is an end in and of itself with no mission.
My journey has brought me to reconsider the whole church structure and question how Biblical the "lead pastor" position is. Currently my family is pursuing being church in simple ways as a family as we seek to love God and our neighbors, share the gospel, and make disciples. In this approach being "on mission" is flowing naturally in our relationships and requires no guilt driven pep talks, stressful building campaigns, or burdensome programs. Getting to live life with Jesus and those He places in our lives is the most freeing and joyful journey I've ever been on.
“Squeeze out fruit for Jesus” - great way to phrase it! I’m with you in questioning church structure (pretty sure having or being a “lead pastor” is dangerous).
I love the way of being on mission that you describe. And I agree, I think people want to feel they have a mission, some kind of purpose outside themselves. But it should be done from a place of rest and freedom, knowing that Jesus is already pleased with us before we accomplish anything for him. Sounds like that’s where you are!
Unpopular opinion among exigetes, but Peter jumping the gun and addressing his perception of a church ‘need,,’ and creating an an urgent priority, is how the early church ended up with 13 instead of 12 apostles. Saul/Paul was on the way. All Peter had to do was be a little bit patient.
How does this relate to the post? Well, let’s replace “we gotta have 12 apostles. We can just only have 11 apostles! The number 11 doesn’t mean anything! OK God we’ve decided to make another apostle because we’re missing one. Please bless our decision and help us pick one with a random draw like we did before you sent your Holy Spirit, and like Jesus never did.”
With ”we gotta have a building! we can’t just not have a building! OK God, we decided to build a building. Please give us a favor and help us with financing and/or weekly squeezing our congregation for millions of dollars. Oh, and we promised our people that you will bless them if they give us a bunch of money over above what they are already giving, so could you back us up there too, please? We only need about three personal stories to play in our beginning of service videos, so if you can’t give people miracles, the law of averages should just take care of it with some juicy coincidences.”
Wow! I’ve never seen the story of Matthias from that perspective. So intriguing. Especially since Paul was on the way, so to speak.
You’re right — so often we use spiritual language to justify our anxieties (we need growth! Success stories!) and to validate the solutions we come up with out of fear. Including the importance of our particular church “vision.”
Yeah, wow, thank you. I take a slightly different tac to address the same problem in my latest essay. I think, as with anything, this is a wicked problem with complex interlocking issues that all compound into a nightmare of a situation for many believers.
I haven’t written about it. I may in the future. I’ve thought about a lot of things as I’ve been around A29 for 20 years! I’ve definitely appreciated your work! My story is more around being drawn into the contemplative tradition of our faith and ultimately finding a home in Anglicanism. I’m a now a new Anglican Priest and planting a church. I put together a video almost a year ago when I was beginning the work. The beginning has some of the reasons why I felt led away from A29 and into the Anglican Way. https://youtu.be/Bu2wpdJZAkg?si=UUKMTizoxrE1KcUn
I agree with you. Another way to redirect the misguided church leaders in your past would to point out that the main work is done by the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts, and will look like a miracle. Chances are, if "church success" looks anything like business success, chances are it was wrong.
The Holy Spirit is so often dismissed or ignored in these types of churches, as we rely on our own strength instead. Also, that last line 🔥
Excellent, Joy.
I’ve heard so many guys in lead pastor positions argue the “I am a pastor whose gift is teaching/evangelism” thing. It’s so easily co-opted. Or “I’m an apostolic pastor like Paul”…sigh. A lot of built in gymnastics to justify the ambition for power and success over shepherding presence. I wrestled with a lot of the same here https://open.substack.com/pub/ryanramsey/p/lead-pastor-or-lead-outsourcer?r=aaq7m&utm_medium=ios
That post was so good! Reducing the role of pastor to a collection of functions is dehumanizing and dangerous -- to the congregation but also to the pastors themselves.
This is well said. One minor nitpick: a shepherd generally does not feed the sheep directly, but brings them to where they may feed themselves. A good pastor is more concerned with getting the flock into the Word for themselves than trying to exhaustively teach every doctrine he can extract from a few verses.
This is a GREAT point. I’ve experienced pastors who seem to want to feed the flock “by hand,” so to speak — to keep them dependent on sermons rather than ensure they can feed themselves.
Me too
This is more or less what I wrote my application research paper on for the DMin I'm starting next fall. You are absolutely right.
Hopefully one day it won’t need to be said at all!
Amen to that.
well then, I'm definitely in good company!
It seems weird to me that this even needs to be said…
Yes. You can tend to your flock if you do not know them, In the last 20 years, have had one interim pastor who made an extraordinary effort to care, tend his flock. Been at current 7 years snd not one pastor or elder had ever checked on us. love our tithe, love our service yep. do they love us - heck they dont even know us!
wow. I'm so sorry. Yes, too many "pastors" just make a profit off their sheep and pay no attention to them otherwise. I'm thankful that Jesus taught so explicitly in condemning the false shepherds and promising to be our Good Shepherd -- otherwise I'd feel pretty hopeless.
that was supposed to bring “ cannot “ tend…..
To say this was "convicting" would be a complete understatement.
As I begin my 6th month of church planting, words like these are a gold mine for me. Thank you for imparting your wisdom so publicly here, Joy.
We are literally in our "Vision, mission, and values" series and although I do believe there is a need to vision cast, for the sake of unity, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment and thoughts on the church not taking on some form of militaristic approach to vision and mission.
I also really appreciate the your both/and approach to shepherds leading and following. It's really my first time reading about shepherds following their flock and it is something I am going to ruminate on and apply to the church plant I am leading (and now following).
I selfishly would like to ask for you to continue writing about your experiences from your church planting years so a young pastor like myself can learn, haha. Thank you for these insights, Joy!
Thank you for reading and for the kind words! I’m definitely not opposed to the idea of “vision” — I believe people want to be part of God’s work in the world and feel called to something bigger than themselves — but after seeing how that mindset went so terribly wrong, I’m trying to re-evaluate everything I thought I knew about church. So, yes, I will be writing more!
This is a great reflection. I’m a former A29 church planter/pastor. I resonate with a lot of this.
Thank you! We were Acts 29 as well and SO invested… I would be so interested to hear more of your story — have you written about it or are you planning to?
I love the comparison of leading the sheep vs carrying for the sheep. So on point. Church can be so stressful as we try in desperation to squeeze out fruit for Jesus. Yet I find it tedious and boring when church is an end in and of itself with no mission.
My journey has brought me to reconsider the whole church structure and question how Biblical the "lead pastor" position is. Currently my family is pursuing being church in simple ways as a family as we seek to love God and our neighbors, share the gospel, and make disciples. In this approach being "on mission" is flowing naturally in our relationships and requires no guilt driven pep talks, stressful building campaigns, or burdensome programs. Getting to live life with Jesus and those He places in our lives is the most freeing and joyful journey I've ever been on.
“Squeeze out fruit for Jesus” - great way to phrase it! I’m with you in questioning church structure (pretty sure having or being a “lead pastor” is dangerous).
I love the way of being on mission that you describe. And I agree, I think people want to feel they have a mission, some kind of purpose outside themselves. But it should be done from a place of rest and freedom, knowing that Jesus is already pleased with us before we accomplish anything for him. Sounds like that’s where you are!
Unpopular opinion among exigetes, but Peter jumping the gun and addressing his perception of a church ‘need,,’ and creating an an urgent priority, is how the early church ended up with 13 instead of 12 apostles. Saul/Paul was on the way. All Peter had to do was be a little bit patient.
How does this relate to the post? Well, let’s replace “we gotta have 12 apostles. We can just only have 11 apostles! The number 11 doesn’t mean anything! OK God we’ve decided to make another apostle because we’re missing one. Please bless our decision and help us pick one with a random draw like we did before you sent your Holy Spirit, and like Jesus never did.”
With ”we gotta have a building! we can’t just not have a building! OK God, we decided to build a building. Please give us a favor and help us with financing and/or weekly squeezing our congregation for millions of dollars. Oh, and we promised our people that you will bless them if they give us a bunch of money over above what they are already giving, so could you back us up there too, please? We only need about three personal stories to play in our beginning of service videos, so if you can’t give people miracles, the law of averages should just take care of it with some juicy coincidences.”
“Wow, Kevin, tell them how you really feel…”
Sorry. I’m sure your church’s program is fine… ;)
Wow! I’ve never seen the story of Matthias from that perspective. So intriguing. Especially since Paul was on the way, so to speak.
You’re right — so often we use spiritual language to justify our anxieties (we need growth! Success stories!) and to validate the solutions we come up with out of fear. Including the importance of our particular church “vision.”
Yeah, wow, thank you. I take a slightly different tac to address the same problem in my latest essay. I think, as with anything, this is a wicked problem with complex interlocking issues that all compound into a nightmare of a situation for many believers.
If you're interested:
https://dlbacon.substack.com/p/take-me-to-church-part-1?utm_source=substack&utm_content=feed%3Arecommended%3Acopy_link
(It is a paid post atm, but releases in a week if you want to save it for later.)
Sounds great! I look forward to reading.
I haven’t written about it. I may in the future. I’ve thought about a lot of things as I’ve been around A29 for 20 years! I’ve definitely appreciated your work! My story is more around being drawn into the contemplative tradition of our faith and ultimately finding a home in Anglicanism. I’m a now a new Anglican Priest and planting a church. I put together a video almost a year ago when I was beginning the work. The beginning has some of the reasons why I felt led away from A29 and into the Anglican Way. https://youtu.be/Bu2wpdJZAkg?si=UUKMTizoxrE1KcUn