I agree with you. Another way to redirect the misguided church leaders in your past would to point out that the main work is done by the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts, and will look like a miracle. Chances are, if "church success" looks anything like business success, chances are it was wrong.
Unpopular opinion among exigetes, but Peter jumping the gun and addressing his perception of a church ‘need,,’ and creating an an urgent priority, is how the early church ended up with 13 instead of 12 apostles. Saul/Paul was on the way. All Peter had to do was be a little bit patient.
How does this relate to the post? Well, let’s replace “we gotta have 12 apostles. We can’t just only have 11 apostles! The number 11 doesn’t mean anything! OK God we’ve decided to make another apostle because we’re missing one. Please bless our decision and help us pick one with a random draw like we did before you sent your Holy Spirit, and like Jesus never did.”
With ”we gotta have a building! we can’t just not have a building! OK God, we decided to build a building. Please give us a favor and help us with financing and/or weekly squeezing our congregation for millions of dollars. Oh, and we promised our people that you will bless them if they give us a bunch of money over above what they are already giving, so could you back us up there too, please? We only need about three personal stories to play in our beginning of service videos, so if you can’t give people miracles, the law of averages should just take care of it with some juicy coincidences.”
Wow! I’ve never seen the story of Matthias from that perspective. So intriguing. Especially since Paul was on the way, so to speak.
You’re right — so often we use spiritual language to justify our anxieties (we need growth! Success stories!) and to validate the solutions we come up with out of fear. Including the importance of our particular church “vision.”
To say this was "convicting" would be a complete understatement.
As I begin my 6th month of church planting, words like these are a gold mine for me. Thank you for imparting your wisdom so publicly here, Joy.
We are literally in our "Vision, mission, and values" series and although I do believe there is a need to vision cast, for the sake of unity, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment and thoughts on the church not taking on some form of militaristic approach to vision and mission.
I also really appreciate the your both/and approach to shepherds leading and following. It's really my first time reading about shepherds following their flock and it is something I am going to ruminate on and apply to the church plant I am leading (and now following).
I selfishly would like to ask for you to continue writing about your experiences from your church planting years so a young pastor like myself can learn, haha. Thank you for these insights, Joy!
Thank you for reading and for the kind words! I’m definitely not opposed to the idea of “vision” — I believe people want to be part of God’s work in the world and feel called to something bigger than themselves — but after seeing how that mindset went so terribly wrong, I’m trying to re-evaluate everything I thought I knew about church. So, yes, I will be writing more!
This is well said. One minor nitpick: a shepherd generally does not feed the sheep directly, but brings them to where they may feed themselves. A good pastor is more concerned with getting the flock into the Word for themselves than trying to exhaustively teach every doctrine he can extract from a few verses.
This is a GREAT point. I’ve experienced pastors who seem to want to feed the flock “by hand,” so to speak — to keep them dependent on sermons rather than ensure they can feed themselves.
Yes. You can tend to your flock if you do not know them, In the last 20 years, have had one interim pastor who made an extraordinary effort to care, tend his flock. Been at current 7 years snd not one pastor or elder had ever checked on us. love our tithe, love our service yep. do they love us - heck they dont even know us!
wow. I'm so sorry. Yes, too many "pastors" just make a profit off their sheep and pay no attention to them otherwise. I'm thankful that Jesus taught so explicitly in condemning the false shepherds and promising to be our Good Shepherd -- otherwise I'd feel pretty hopeless.
I’ve heard so many guys in lead pastor positions argue the “I am a pastor whose gift is teaching/evangelism” thing. It’s so easily co-opted. Or “I’m an apostolic pastor like Paul”…sigh. A lot of built in gymnastics to justify the ambition for power and success over shepherding presence. I wrestled with a lot of the same here https://open.substack.com/pub/ryanramsey/p/lead-pastor-or-lead-outsourcer?r=aaq7m&utm_medium=ios
That post was so good! Reducing the role of pastor to a collection of functions is dehumanizing and dangerous -- to the congregation but also to the pastors themselves.
Oh man you have put into words something I have been feeling for a looong time! I know so many ministers who do this well, and yet people look down on them because they don’t have a “vision” other than care for the flock. And I also know so many ministers with all the vision and strategy the world can offer, and it often feels to me that they don’t actually know what it is that God has asked them to do in their vocation. A very sad state of affairs indeed!
Absolutely. It's a shame that the emphasis on "church growth" tends to create pastors who are only interested in people until they get them in a pew. And in my opinion, churches would be more effective (and grow more, in the long run) if pastors focused on caring for the members they already had, rather than trying to fish for bigger crowds.
Thanks for the article. I get where you are coming from and I think that if Christians and particularly pastors were called to only be one dimensional, then it would be more universality valid. Usually it's not that simple. Christians go through various seasons in serving the Lord. Also remember that Jesus is not just a Sheppard but the mighty king who will lead his heavenly armies when he returns.
In closing, the article makes very sound points about the roles of Christian leaders, including pastors. I think that the points made provide great explanation regarding what can happen when roles are not clearly understood.
The cultic church I left a few years ago was mission driven to an overwhelming degree. When that is what the pastors model, it becomes all too easy for the congregation to absorb the wrong lessons. We learned to define ourselves by strategy and purpose and value ourselves by our usefulness or lack thereof. It did so much damage to our relationships with God and with each other.
The work of re-wiring my understanding of pastors, shepherds, leaders, and the role of the church as an institution has been such a tangled mess. This spoke so clearly to so much of what I could not quite put language to. Thank you.
Thank you so much! Yes, the “mission-driven” church model creates transactional relationships, where the least useful or productive members are cast aside and discarded. Nothing like the Good Shepherd who leaves the 99 to find the 1.
My hope is that the church is in a time of correction and reformation, where we will move away from this focus on profit and growth and start to more clearly reflect the patient, humble love of Jesus.
I haven’t written about it. I may in the future. I’ve thought about a lot of things as I’ve been around A29 for 20 years! I’ve definitely appreciated your work! My story is more around being drawn into the contemplative tradition of our faith and ultimately finding a home in Anglicanism. I’m a now a new Anglican Priest and planting a church. I put together a video almost a year ago when I was beginning the work. The beginning has some of the reasons why I felt led away from A29 and into the Anglican Way. https://youtu.be/Bu2wpdJZAkg?si=UUKMTizoxrE1KcUn
Now I'm not one for AI, but man, that cover photo is great, and the fact that it had such a problem envisioning sheep going to war... truly a testimony against the xhurch.
Thanks for putting this reality into words for others to see more clearly.
Interesting article. In our church the Priest role is more of pastor, not in the vanguard of evangelisation; its Bishops role would be more akin to evangelists. Ours is an older model.
Yes -- the idea of "mission" and growth, etc, as part of a pastor and church's goals has very much been influenced by modern American capitalist culture.
Great article. Sadly the church has become very much a corporate/military minded entity. Yes, we are to grow the kingdom of God but that is done with two simple steps; love God, love others.
I agree with you. Another way to redirect the misguided church leaders in your past would to point out that the main work is done by the Holy Spirit, not by our own efforts, and will look like a miracle. Chances are, if "church success" looks anything like business success, chances are it was wrong.
The Holy Spirit is so often dismissed or ignored in these types of churches, as we rely on our own strength instead. Also, that last line 🔥
Just stating what I think the truth would be, not how things actually are.
Unpopular opinion among exigetes, but Peter jumping the gun and addressing his perception of a church ‘need,,’ and creating an an urgent priority, is how the early church ended up with 13 instead of 12 apostles. Saul/Paul was on the way. All Peter had to do was be a little bit patient.
How does this relate to the post? Well, let’s replace “we gotta have 12 apostles. We can’t just only have 11 apostles! The number 11 doesn’t mean anything! OK God we’ve decided to make another apostle because we’re missing one. Please bless our decision and help us pick one with a random draw like we did before you sent your Holy Spirit, and like Jesus never did.”
With ”we gotta have a building! we can’t just not have a building! OK God, we decided to build a building. Please give us a favor and help us with financing and/or weekly squeezing our congregation for millions of dollars. Oh, and we promised our people that you will bless them if they give us a bunch of money over above what they are already giving, so could you back us up there too, please? We only need about three personal stories to play in our beginning of service videos, so if you can’t give people miracles, the law of averages should just take care of it with some juicy coincidences.”
“Wow, Kevin, tell them how you really feel…”
Sorry. I’m sure your church’s program is fine… ;)
Wow! I’ve never seen the story of Matthias from that perspective. So intriguing. Especially since Paul was on the way, so to speak.
You’re right — so often we use spiritual language to justify our anxieties (we need growth! Success stories!) and to validate the solutions we come up with out of fear. Including the importance of our particular church “vision.”
Shepherd’s are supposed to “equip the saints to do the work of the ministry”
(Ephesians 4:12)
Amen! Exactly.
To say this was "convicting" would be a complete understatement.
As I begin my 6th month of church planting, words like these are a gold mine for me. Thank you for imparting your wisdom so publicly here, Joy.
We are literally in our "Vision, mission, and values" series and although I do believe there is a need to vision cast, for the sake of unity, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment and thoughts on the church not taking on some form of militaristic approach to vision and mission.
I also really appreciate the your both/and approach to shepherds leading and following. It's really my first time reading about shepherds following their flock and it is something I am going to ruminate on and apply to the church plant I am leading (and now following).
I selfishly would like to ask for you to continue writing about your experiences from your church planting years so a young pastor like myself can learn, haha. Thank you for these insights, Joy!
Thank you for reading and for the kind words! I’m definitely not opposed to the idea of “vision” — I believe people want to be part of God’s work in the world and feel called to something bigger than themselves — but after seeing how that mindset went so terribly wrong, I’m trying to re-evaluate everything I thought I knew about church. So, yes, I will be writing more!
This is well said. One minor nitpick: a shepherd generally does not feed the sheep directly, but brings them to where they may feed themselves. A good pastor is more concerned with getting the flock into the Word for themselves than trying to exhaustively teach every doctrine he can extract from a few verses.
This is a GREAT point. I’ve experienced pastors who seem to want to feed the flock “by hand,” so to speak — to keep them dependent on sermons rather than ensure they can feed themselves.
Me too
Yes. You can tend to your flock if you do not know them, In the last 20 years, have had one interim pastor who made an extraordinary effort to care, tend his flock. Been at current 7 years snd not one pastor or elder had ever checked on us. love our tithe, love our service yep. do they love us - heck they dont even know us!
wow. I'm so sorry. Yes, too many "pastors" just make a profit off their sheep and pay no attention to them otherwise. I'm thankful that Jesus taught so explicitly in condemning the false shepherds and promising to be our Good Shepherd -- otherwise I'd feel pretty hopeless.
that was supposed to bring “ cannot “ tend…..
Excellent, Joy.
I’ve heard so many guys in lead pastor positions argue the “I am a pastor whose gift is teaching/evangelism” thing. It’s so easily co-opted. Or “I’m an apostolic pastor like Paul”…sigh. A lot of built in gymnastics to justify the ambition for power and success over shepherding presence. I wrestled with a lot of the same here https://open.substack.com/pub/ryanramsey/p/lead-pastor-or-lead-outsourcer?r=aaq7m&utm_medium=ios
That post was so good! Reducing the role of pastor to a collection of functions is dehumanizing and dangerous -- to the congregation but also to the pastors themselves.
Oh man you have put into words something I have been feeling for a looong time! I know so many ministers who do this well, and yet people look down on them because they don’t have a “vision” other than care for the flock. And I also know so many ministers with all the vision and strategy the world can offer, and it often feels to me that they don’t actually know what it is that God has asked them to do in their vocation. A very sad state of affairs indeed!
Absolutely. It's a shame that the emphasis on "church growth" tends to create pastors who are only interested in people until they get them in a pew. And in my opinion, churches would be more effective (and grow more, in the long run) if pastors focused on caring for the members they already had, rather than trying to fish for bigger crowds.
Thanks for the article. I get where you are coming from and I think that if Christians and particularly pastors were called to only be one dimensional, then it would be more universality valid. Usually it's not that simple. Christians go through various seasons in serving the Lord. Also remember that Jesus is not just a Sheppard but the mighty king who will lead his heavenly armies when he returns.
In closing, the article makes very sound points about the roles of Christian leaders, including pastors. I think that the points made provide great explanation regarding what can happen when roles are not clearly understood.
Oh this was so heartening
❤️
The cultic church I left a few years ago was mission driven to an overwhelming degree. When that is what the pastors model, it becomes all too easy for the congregation to absorb the wrong lessons. We learned to define ourselves by strategy and purpose and value ourselves by our usefulness or lack thereof. It did so much damage to our relationships with God and with each other.
The work of re-wiring my understanding of pastors, shepherds, leaders, and the role of the church as an institution has been such a tangled mess. This spoke so clearly to so much of what I could not quite put language to. Thank you.
Thank you so much! Yes, the “mission-driven” church model creates transactional relationships, where the least useful or productive members are cast aside and discarded. Nothing like the Good Shepherd who leaves the 99 to find the 1.
My hope is that the church is in a time of correction and reformation, where we will move away from this focus on profit and growth and start to more clearly reflect the patient, humble love of Jesus.
I haven’t written about it. I may in the future. I’ve thought about a lot of things as I’ve been around A29 for 20 years! I’ve definitely appreciated your work! My story is more around being drawn into the contemplative tradition of our faith and ultimately finding a home in Anglicanism. I’m a now a new Anglican Priest and planting a church. I put together a video almost a year ago when I was beginning the work. The beginning has some of the reasons why I felt led away from A29 and into the Anglican Way. https://youtu.be/Bu2wpdJZAkg?si=UUKMTizoxrE1KcUn
This is more or less what I wrote my application research paper on for the DMin I'm starting next fall. You are absolutely right.
Hopefully one day it won’t need to be said at all!
Amen to that.
well then, I'm definitely in good company!
It seems weird to me that this even needs to be said…
Now I'm not one for AI, but man, that cover photo is great, and the fact that it had such a problem envisioning sheep going to war... truly a testimony against the xhurch.
Thanks for putting this reality into words for others to see more clearly.
Same - not a huge AI fan, but it has its uses! Thanks for reading.
Interesting article. In our church the Priest role is more of pastor, not in the vanguard of evangelisation; its Bishops role would be more akin to evangelists. Ours is an older model.
Yes -- the idea of "mission" and growth, etc, as part of a pastor and church's goals has very much been influenced by modern American capitalist culture.
"A real shepherd isn’t 'leading' the flock where he wants to go; he guides them to where their needs will be met."
Well said. Churches should focus more on discipleship and evangelism, and less on political causes.
Great article. Sadly the church has become very much a corporate/military minded entity. Yes, we are to grow the kingdom of God but that is done with two simple steps; love God, love others.
So true! We would rather build stages and create growth strategies than do the hard and humble work of love.