My husband forwarded me your post and as I was reading it I thought, “I would love to send her a copy of my book to see what she thinks. This resonates so much with me,” and then I got to your post script (which he hadn’t gotten to yet)! Thank you for your important work and I look forward to hearing what you think about my book.
Wow! What a lovely surprise to see your comment. Thanks for reading — and yes, I’m excited to dig into your book. Just finished the introduction and I can see it’s going to be excellent!
I hope it doesn’t disappoint! Also, happy to meet up with y’all after you’ve read it if you want to discuss, push back, or suggest further research avenues. Thanks again for taking the time to read it!
Joy, your helpful post also reminded me of Christa’s book, which I finally just got my hands on and started reading last night. I’m looking forward to working my way through it and seeing more public posts and conversations about it! Ever since seeing the McKirlands’ guest lecture on authority in Ron Pierce’s class, their words have been a brain worm in the best possible way, and I have yet to learn enough of this new paradigm.
Excellent comments on what was and this new book. I also read Shepherding as a young parent (almost 30 years ago) and thought it was great except I didn’t agree with spanking. Then I went to give it as a gift, but decided I should read it again because so many of my views had changed and thought it was rubbish advice. I did not give the gift of that book.
Lucky that you opened it up again! I suspect so many of these unhealthy books got traction because they were marketed to young and inexperienced parents. We simply didn't know anything, were desperate for advice, and wanted to do what people said was "godly."
Whew, 100% - this reverberates all throughout evangelicalism, not just in parenting lit. It's such an interconnected web that keeps people stuck. Thank you for reading and for sharing these insights!
Wow! I had my first child in 1973. I was raised in an evangelical church and wanted to be a good mother. I was one of those who read all of Dobson's books and listened to his programs. I also attended Basic Youth Conflicts. I apologized to both of my children last Christmas for all the hurt I caused them. All I can say is I didn't know at the time. I am sorry.
That’s an encouraging story — thank you! It’s sad to me how these authors/pastors used their spiritual authority to build an audience and sell products. So many families were looking for help and were led astray instead.
Thanks for the book recommendation and this dive into a tough topic. I can relate, was raised in this church culture of the 80s. Have personally parented very differently and sometimes find myself questioning if I am doing “it right.” But that’s all part of the culture! Agree with the connection you’ve made between this culture of authority and the issues in the church.
Thank you! Yes, I know what you mean about questioning parenting decisions. I still do... It's hard to break out of the patterns we were raised in -- but worth it!
Thanks for the review! Although my parents weren't authoritarian, I feel like the Christian culture I grew up in was shaped by these ideas, and I realize how it cultivated in me a view of God as someone who just wants my obedience—all the way to the heart level—but doesn't reaallly love me (or worse, His love is the facade but what He REALLY wants is my obedience). As if it's purely about power. Obviously this doesn't cultivate love, trust, or...obedience! It cultivates legalism first (which masks an underlying sense of rebellion, anger at authority, and desire to manipulate) and then eventually self-protection and mistrust of God. Anyway, I'm glad He's growing me and showing me His love. But I am also growing to recognize my skewed vision of God along these authority-focused lines. Do I believe He calls us to obey? Yes, but it's because He is wholly trustworthy and good and calling us into LIFE because He LOVES us. He's not a petulant "god" on a power trip.
Amen to all of this! I can absolutely relate to that skewed view of God. And you're so right, if "obedience" is all we believe God wants, how can it NOT cultivate a kind of loveless legalism? It certainly did for me. Thank you for reading and for these helpful reflections!
Yes! And it certainly played into my Religious OCD, creating a simultaneous trembling fear of doing the wrong thing and being guilty (which probably appeared on the outside as humble faith), all the while lacking love for God and grief over sin.
Thank you! Yes, I bet it's way more common than people know. I benefited from Mike Emlet's talks on religious OCD from CCEF. Grateful to see people talking about it on Substack.
When our children were little our church offer a course called Children a Challenge. By Rudolph Dreikers. It was amazing. Logical consequences. Love caring. Being consistent. Do what you say. I don’t remember it all but it was good. Not authoritarian. Maybe authoritative. ??
Authoritative vs. authoritarian is such an important distinction! I was curious about Rudolph Dreikurs, so I did a quick search. Apparently he was an Austrian psychiatrist who "suggested that human misbehavior is the result of feeling a lack of belonging to one's social group" and tried to develop a system "for stimulating cooperative behaviour without punishment or reward." Sounds like your church did a great job in learning from genuine experts in the field.. I'm going to read up on his work now!
When I was 29 I decided to set a boundary with my father for the first time in my whole life. I was terrified. He screamed at me for a while, and then concluded that since I’m not willing to obey him, “all those years of counselling clearly didn’t work.”
Only now am I realising that the intended outcome of “good Christian parenting” was never supposed to be human flourishing.
Thank you for this reflection, Joy! It reminded me of the years we spent at our old SBC church, and the authoritarian/abusive atmosphere around parenting. I remember one Sunday when our neurodiverse son was probably 3-5 years old and he had a meltdown during the service. Later on the pastor’s wife asked me if I had pinched him, assuming his meltdown was because I had disciplined him for not being obedient in some way. No, lady, toddlers shouldn’t be expected to sit quietly through a long-ass church service, regardless of them being neurotypical, or not. This same woman also rebuked me when I told her we signed a contract as foster parents promising not to spank our children.
You hit it perfectly when you mentioned apologizing to your children for parenting failures. That’s something we prioritize here too, and it makes such a difference in the relationship (and something I never heard about while in the SBC).
My husband forwarded me your post and as I was reading it I thought, “I would love to send her a copy of my book to see what she thinks. This resonates so much with me,” and then I got to your post script (which he hadn’t gotten to yet)! Thank you for your important work and I look forward to hearing what you think about my book.
Wow! What a lovely surprise to see your comment. Thanks for reading — and yes, I’m excited to dig into your book. Just finished the introduction and I can see it’s going to be excellent!
I hope it doesn’t disappoint! Also, happy to meet up with y’all after you’ve read it if you want to discuss, push back, or suggest further research avenues. Thanks again for taking the time to read it!
That would be amazing — will chat with my friends about it!
Joy, your helpful post also reminded me of Christa’s book, which I finally just got my hands on and started reading last night. I’m looking forward to working my way through it and seeing more public posts and conversations about it! Ever since seeing the McKirlands’ guest lecture on authority in Ron Pierce’s class, their words have been a brain worm in the best possible way, and I have yet to learn enough of this new paradigm.
Thanks to each of you in these labors!
Excellent comments on what was and this new book. I also read Shepherding as a young parent (almost 30 years ago) and thought it was great except I didn’t agree with spanking. Then I went to give it as a gift, but decided I should read it again because so many of my views had changed and thought it was rubbish advice. I did not give the gift of that book.
Lucky that you opened it up again! I suspect so many of these unhealthy books got traction because they were marketed to young and inexperienced parents. We simply didn't know anything, were desperate for advice, and wanted to do what people said was "godly."
Yes! 100% correct.
Whew, 100% - this reverberates all throughout evangelicalism, not just in parenting lit. It's such an interconnected web that keeps people stuck. Thank you for reading and for sharing these insights!
I’m hopeful that some churches are learning and will create better systems!
Wow! I had my first child in 1973. I was raised in an evangelical church and wanted to be a good mother. I was one of those who read all of Dobson's books and listened to his programs. I also attended Basic Youth Conflicts. I apologized to both of my children last Christmas for all the hurt I caused them. All I can say is I didn't know at the time. I am sorry.
That’s an encouraging story — thank you! It’s sad to me how these authors/pastors used their spiritual authority to build an audience and sell products. So many families were looking for help and were led astray instead.
Thanks for the book recommendation and this dive into a tough topic. I can relate, was raised in this church culture of the 80s. Have personally parented very differently and sometimes find myself questioning if I am doing “it right.” But that’s all part of the culture! Agree with the connection you’ve made between this culture of authority and the issues in the church.
Thank you! Yes, I know what you mean about questioning parenting decisions. I still do... It's hard to break out of the patterns we were raised in -- but worth it!
Thanks for the review! Although my parents weren't authoritarian, I feel like the Christian culture I grew up in was shaped by these ideas, and I realize how it cultivated in me a view of God as someone who just wants my obedience—all the way to the heart level—but doesn't reaallly love me (or worse, His love is the facade but what He REALLY wants is my obedience). As if it's purely about power. Obviously this doesn't cultivate love, trust, or...obedience! It cultivates legalism first (which masks an underlying sense of rebellion, anger at authority, and desire to manipulate) and then eventually self-protection and mistrust of God. Anyway, I'm glad He's growing me and showing me His love. But I am also growing to recognize my skewed vision of God along these authority-focused lines. Do I believe He calls us to obey? Yes, but it's because He is wholly trustworthy and good and calling us into LIFE because He LOVES us. He's not a petulant "god" on a power trip.
Amen to all of this! I can absolutely relate to that skewed view of God. And you're so right, if "obedience" is all we believe God wants, how can it NOT cultivate a kind of loveless legalism? It certainly did for me. Thank you for reading and for these helpful reflections!
Yes! And it certainly played into my Religious OCD, creating a simultaneous trembling fear of doing the wrong thing and being guilty (which probably appeared on the outside as humble faith), all the while lacking love for God and grief over sin.
Oh, that's so painful. I'm so sorry! This is an issue that's more common than most people realize and needs a LOT more attention in the church.
Thank you! Yes, I bet it's way more common than people know. I benefited from Mike Emlet's talks on religious OCD from CCEF. Grateful to see people talking about it on Substack.
When our children were little our church offer a course called Children a Challenge. By Rudolph Dreikers. It was amazing. Logical consequences. Love caring. Being consistent. Do what you say. I don’t remember it all but it was good. Not authoritarian. Maybe authoritative. ??
Authoritative vs. authoritarian is such an important distinction! I was curious about Rudolph Dreikurs, so I did a quick search. Apparently he was an Austrian psychiatrist who "suggested that human misbehavior is the result of feeling a lack of belonging to one's social group" and tried to develop a system "for stimulating cooperative behaviour without punishment or reward." Sounds like your church did a great job in learning from genuine experts in the field.. I'm going to read up on his work now!
It’s a long time ago. Probably 1977. But it helped our family. We had a two year old and a baby.
None of our kids spanked our grandchildren. We have 7 well behaved loving grandchildren from 3 loving caring children.
Shooing Flies was a great chapter I remember. Chattering and nattering doesn’t work. Be direct. Listen. Decide together.
Barbara Coloroso was another one in later years. Respect. Choices. Love.
Love to know that the "good fruit" is being cultivated in one generation to another!
Yes. Very much so.
Ps no spanking.
👍
When I was 29 I decided to set a boundary with my father for the first time in my whole life. I was terrified. He screamed at me for a while, and then concluded that since I’m not willing to obey him, “all those years of counselling clearly didn’t work.”
Only now am I realising that the intended outcome of “good Christian parenting” was never supposed to be human flourishing.
It was always about compliance.
Thank you for this reflection, Joy! It reminded me of the years we spent at our old SBC church, and the authoritarian/abusive atmosphere around parenting. I remember one Sunday when our neurodiverse son was probably 3-5 years old and he had a meltdown during the service. Later on the pastor’s wife asked me if I had pinched him, assuming his meltdown was because I had disciplined him for not being obedient in some way. No, lady, toddlers shouldn’t be expected to sit quietly through a long-ass church service, regardless of them being neurotypical, or not. This same woman also rebuked me when I told her we signed a contract as foster parents promising not to spank our children.
You hit it perfectly when you mentioned apologizing to your children for parenting failures. That’s something we prioritize here too, and it makes such a difference in the relationship (and something I never heard about while in the SBC).