So good, Joy! This is it exactly. They'll use your work and your gifts and your labour, but they won't acknowledge it. It's just so frustrating and infantilizing.
This story is so common. The same nonsense, over and over again. So sorry that you (and countless others) had to go through this but I’m glad you’re shedding light on it.
Thank you for THIS truth: "My role and the role of the male pastor/elders were not “different” but with “equal value.” Our roles were the same, but valued quite differently." You have shed light on the fact that (despite the common SBC trope), many churches DO value men and women's work differently. This earthly value is demonstrated by the lack of pay, titles, honor, and ordination given to women. Watch what they do, not what they say.
exactly! When you've been submerged in a church culture that keeps *telling* women they are valued, it can be hard to see the truth. But once you recognize the disconnect, you can't unsee it!
Oh indeed! I was an elder in a vineyard church plant. We had a fair amount of teens so I was happy to lead the youth group. I was never called pastor. I was not paid. When I stepped down after several years, they hired a man, paid him, called him a pastor. I spent most of my professional career in the corporate where they loved my "leadership" skills, my ability to speak in front of hundreds of other professionals, the FDA, the CDC. But church despises me. So yep-I get it, I feel it, but I will admit I am angry at the outright hypocrisy and sexism. I will not ever recommend an evangelical church to anyone again.
I'm so sorry you know what this is like. It's so demeaning to be used this way ... and to realize that if only we were men, we would be paid and praised for doing the exact same things. I hope and pray evangelical culture will see these problems and start to change.
Thank you for your personal story that elaborates on the ridiculousness of the SBC's "equal, but"/God's beautiful design for women to graciously submit to male leadership...by women continuing their unpaid work pastoring, and yet being obedient to never using that title.
“Our roles were the same, but valued quite differently.” Exactly! You shepherded the women of the church so well that it was an obvious gift, and that gift was exploited as free labor and then weaponized against you. I hope you are in a place now, or are looking for one, where you can use the gift God gave you for his glory again.
This dynamic sometimes carries forward into egalitarian spaces--hopefully unwittingly. Women pastors are often expected to be willing to be paid less. Also I find male pastors of other churches conflicted about seeing the-pilgrimage.org as a potential resource for themselves or their churches. That may be due to other dynamics than *just* the woman-in-leadership one, but it's certainly part of it.
I feel like it's extra tricky because they don't see it in themselves. They THINK they're egalitarian, and so any critique that they might not be is...not always met with openness.
Oh, ‘servant leadership ‘ in Anabaptist circles is 100% misogyny. Always amazes me how people applaud those speaking against the patriarchy in those circles. They themselves are part of the problem. There are many ways to seem egalitarian on the outside, but definitely not on the inside.
i find it so interesting that a woman cannot preach from the pulpit. she can go into the jungle on missions or street corner and preach Jesus but is verboten to stand behind it and preach a sermon about the good news?
What is so valued or holy about that piece of furniture? It was invented 400 years after the early church in Acts. It was made to project the voice in a time before electronics. We would never think of venerating a microphone, yet the pulpit is considered holy ground. She can stand behind it and bring announcements of church events and activities yet not preach the gospel? She can stand behind it and sing a song about Jesus but dare not bring a message in sermon form. Could she write a sermon put it to song and sing it to the congregation?
And what if the church were to burn down or blow away in a torndao?. Since she can preach on street corners and mission fields could she then stand in the location where the church once stood and preach?
I, too, had the opportunity to do some meaningful work in church. For nearly 20 years I was on staff. I built up a logjam of confusion over some of the inconsistencies. I could not fully buy in to the idea being promoted that a woman’s ministry had to be subject to boundaries not given to men, but—that did not make us 2nd class citizens in the church. It simply did not compute. Only when I stepped out of my role in the church did I feel free to honestly examine that whole puzzle. I cannot unsee what I have seen, although many of my friends are happy to be unbothered. My vision is more clear today and I am in a place of not having to live with so much contradictory and inconsistent rhetoric. The size of my church has been greatly reduced but it is a place where men and women, sons and daughters can flourish and do the work God has gifted them to do.
“I have sometimes been ready to think that the passion for Liberty cannot be equally strong in the breasts of those who have been accustomed to deprive their fellow Creatures of theirs. Of this I am certain that it is not founded upon that generous and christian principle of doing to others as we would that others should do unto us."
- Cofounder, Abigail Adams.
Letter on 31 March 1776, to John Adams. Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/04-01-02-0241. [Original source: The Adams Papers, Adams Family Correspondence, vol. 1, December 1761 – May 1776, ed. Lyman H. Butterfield. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1963, pp. 369–371.]
Well now Joy, I grew up in a church as upside down as your own. The better way is possible. Now, I am part of a.church with a female lead pastor and multiple other pastors. Everyone who leads an area of service in the church is honoured as "pastor" . This journey has taken me long years to sort out.
Your words and those of other women who shepherd God's people are fresh "breath" for the church.
The choices you present for paid/unpaid shepherds are real. Pastors should be paid for the work they do and how that works can be very different. The larger church must work out the places that money and power are given.
You and your work are appreciated. Keep your heart for Jesus and his people.
The first woman ordained as a minister in the United Church of Canada was Lydia Emelie Gruchy, in 1936. She was ordained after a period of advocacy from the local church community and was the first woman to graduate from Presbyterian Theological College (which later became St. Andrew's College).
“I’m actually not sure if it’s helpful for anyone, man or woman, to be paid a full-time salary to “pastor,” or for the role to be considered a professional career.” 💯
So good, Joy! This is it exactly. They'll use your work and your gifts and your labour, but they won't acknowledge it. It's just so frustrating and infantilizing.
Thank you, Sheila! I appreciate all the ways you call attention to these issues.
This story is so common. The same nonsense, over and over again. So sorry that you (and countless others) had to go through this but I’m glad you’re shedding light on it.
Thank you, Bobby!
Thank you for THIS truth: "My role and the role of the male pastor/elders were not “different” but with “equal value.” Our roles were the same, but valued quite differently." You have shed light on the fact that (despite the common SBC trope), many churches DO value men and women's work differently. This earthly value is demonstrated by the lack of pay, titles, honor, and ordination given to women. Watch what they do, not what they say.
exactly! When you've been submerged in a church culture that keeps *telling* women they are valued, it can be hard to see the truth. But once you recognize the disconnect, you can't unsee it!
Oh indeed! I was an elder in a vineyard church plant. We had a fair amount of teens so I was happy to lead the youth group. I was never called pastor. I was not paid. When I stepped down after several years, they hired a man, paid him, called him a pastor. I spent most of my professional career in the corporate where they loved my "leadership" skills, my ability to speak in front of hundreds of other professionals, the FDA, the CDC. But church despises me. So yep-I get it, I feel it, but I will admit I am angry at the outright hypocrisy and sexism. I will not ever recommend an evangelical church to anyone again.
I'm so sorry you know what this is like. It's so demeaning to be used this way ... and to realize that if only we were men, we would be paid and praised for doing the exact same things. I hope and pray evangelical culture will see these problems and start to change.
Thank you for your personal story that elaborates on the ridiculousness of the SBC's "equal, but"/God's beautiful design for women to graciously submit to male leadership...by women continuing their unpaid work pastoring, and yet being obedient to never using that title.
Thank you! I'm grateful that Jesus sees and values our work, even when the church refuses to acknowledge it.
And what matters most 😌
“Our roles were the same, but valued quite differently.” Exactly! You shepherded the women of the church so well that it was an obvious gift, and that gift was exploited as free labor and then weaponized against you. I hope you are in a place now, or are looking for one, where you can use the gift God gave you for his glory again.
Girl yes. Every bit of this.
This dynamic sometimes carries forward into egalitarian spaces--hopefully unwittingly. Women pastors are often expected to be willing to be paid less. Also I find male pastors of other churches conflicted about seeing the-pilgrimage.org as a potential resource for themselves or their churches. That may be due to other dynamics than *just* the woman-in-leadership one, but it's certainly part of it.
Oof.. yes, I’ve heard similar stories. Behind the label of “egalitarian,” many pastors and churches still practice a gender hierarchy.
I feel like it's extra tricky because they don't see it in themselves. They THINK they're egalitarian, and so any critique that they might not be is...not always met with openness.
So challenging!
Oh, ‘servant leadership ‘ in Anabaptist circles is 100% misogyny. Always amazes me how people applaud those speaking against the patriarchy in those circles. They themselves are part of the problem. There are many ways to seem egalitarian on the outside, but definitely not on the inside.
i find it so interesting that a woman cannot preach from the pulpit. she can go into the jungle on missions or street corner and preach Jesus but is verboten to stand behind it and preach a sermon about the good news?
What is so valued or holy about that piece of furniture? It was invented 400 years after the early church in Acts. It was made to project the voice in a time before electronics. We would never think of venerating a microphone, yet the pulpit is considered holy ground. She can stand behind it and bring announcements of church events and activities yet not preach the gospel? She can stand behind it and sing a song about Jesus but dare not bring a message in sermon form. Could she write a sermon put it to song and sing it to the congregation?
And what if the church were to burn down or blow away in a torndao?. Since she can preach on street corners and mission fields could she then stand in the location where the church once stood and preach?
It just does not make sense.
Exactly right … the places of power have always been preserved for men 😔
I can’t “like” this. 😞 Seems more apt. Joy, I’m so sorry you’ve had to live, lead, and serve in an environment like this. Thank you for your witness.
Thank you, Jason. I’m thankful to have found my way out!
I, too, had the opportunity to do some meaningful work in church. For nearly 20 years I was on staff. I built up a logjam of confusion over some of the inconsistencies. I could not fully buy in to the idea being promoted that a woman’s ministry had to be subject to boundaries not given to men, but—that did not make us 2nd class citizens in the church. It simply did not compute. Only when I stepped out of my role in the church did I feel free to honestly examine that whole puzzle. I cannot unsee what I have seen, although many of my friends are happy to be unbothered. My vision is more clear today and I am in a place of not having to live with so much contradictory and inconsistent rhetoric. The size of my church has been greatly reduced but it is a place where men and women, sons and daughters can flourish and do the work God has gifted them to do.
“I have sometimes been ready to think that the passion for Liberty cannot be equally strong in the breasts of those who have been accustomed to deprive their fellow Creatures of theirs. Of this I am certain that it is not founded upon that generous and christian principle of doing to others as we would that others should do unto us."
- Cofounder, Abigail Adams.
Letter on 31 March 1776, to John Adams. Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/04-01-02-0241. [Original source: The Adams Papers, Adams Family Correspondence, vol. 1, December 1761 – May 1776, ed. Lyman H. Butterfield. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1963, pp. 369–371.]
That’s a fantastic quote 🎯
Well now Joy, I grew up in a church as upside down as your own. The better way is possible. Now, I am part of a.church with a female lead pastor and multiple other pastors. Everyone who leads an area of service in the church is honoured as "pastor" . This journey has taken me long years to sort out.
Your words and those of other women who shepherd God's people are fresh "breath" for the church.
The choices you present for paid/unpaid shepherds are real. Pastors should be paid for the work they do and how that works can be very different. The larger church must work out the places that money and power are given.
You and your work are appreciated. Keep your heart for Jesus and his people.
Your church sounds wonderful. Thank you for the kind words!
100%
Can’t believe. We’ve had women pastors in our church for many years. I’ll google it.
I googled.
The first woman ordained as a minister in the United Church of Canada was Lydia Emelie Gruchy, in 1936. She was ordained after a period of advocacy from the local church community and was the first woman to graduate from Presbyterian Theological College (which later became St. Andrew's College).
Wow, that’s incredible. I love that your experience has been so different from mine. Sounds like a healthy denomination!
Very open to Jesus. Justice. And inclusivity.
“I’m actually not sure if it’s helpful for anyone, man or woman, to be paid a full-time salary to “pastor,” or for the role to be considered a professional career.” 💯